Curse

zwei2stein · Apr 18, 2008, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daggrs And All

how about they make PvP only skill updates? like, if your in a PvP area/match your skills are different then they would be in a PvE environment

we DO have PvP only skills:

Frenzy for example.

There is even PvE-only version of this skill (Flail)

the_jos · Apr 18, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

There is no doubt that under Ursan Blessing is a bad system. But there are reasons that specific classes like mesmers are left out of groups. What Anet should be doing is working on PvE-only skills that will give those classes something that will make them valuable in a group. PvE skills should be class specific skills that offer a unique ability on the level of importance of Ursan Blessing. This way, you wont destroy PvP because you are using PvE specific skills.

Profession exclusion is the problem of PUG mentality, not the actual skills.
Even todays UB problem is.
Before UB PUG groups were limited to certain professions, now they are but they require only two professions. Bear or monk.

A profession like mesmer has an excellent PvE skill, CoP, that turns it in a very powerfull nuker when combined with the right skills and some insight in when to use those.
However, this skill combination was there before EotN and was still ignored by every PUG player around.

As others stated on the forum a long time ago, PUGs are dead.
They died a long time ago for most things you can do in the game.
Only a few areas were populated enough to actually PUG. The other were empty or took a long time to get a team together.

UB changed this. You can PUG every elite area now.
But PUG mentality did not change. They still want that one profession with a certain build. Lucky that build is now one specific skill and not several skills.

Get over it, PUG was dead and UB revived it.
For those who don't want to play it nothing has changed.
It was hard to team in the past, it is hard to team now.

On topic: trying to make changes to PvP while not affecting PvE does say something about the PvE community.
They seem unable to change their gameplay.
Aegis to 15e? I use it on most of my monk bars and it will not have much effect.
I hardly ever have to switch to my normal energy set, most of the time I have a shield as offhand.
That's 12 energy doing nothing and in my recent monk bars there is not a single PvE skill.
High energy set? Have not used it in ages.
Yesterday monked a vanquish in Lornar's with guildies, North -> South.
Had some minor energy problems as was to be expected in a 6 player team.
But if I would have those problems all the time there would be something wrong with my build or the team build or play style.
If you can't monk like this either you are just a bad monk player or you need to organize your team better.

This is what bothers me about PvE.
People can't adapt to skill changes anymore, they 'need' specific builds to be able to do things.

Redfeather1975 · Apr 18, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

I think eventually they'll realize it's not practical to use the same tools for two game modes that function differently.
They'll either make both game modes virtually identical, or use two sets of tools, or continue to do the dance of headaches.

cebalrai · Apr 18, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Until Anet decides to overhaul Ursan, the words "pve" and "balance" done belong in the same sentence.

pumpkin pie · Apr 18, 2008, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I think eventually they'll realize it's not practical to use the same tools for two game modes that function differently.
They'll either make both game modes virtually identical, or use two sets of tools, or continue to do the dance of headaches.

Actually, it is not a bad game modes if other MMORPG is copying it.

fowlero · Apr 18, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I'm a bit confused.

Are they going to revert the wards/spirits not affecting npc's in GvG because it affects pve!!?!11

This is the dumbest thing anet have ever done, balance is shot, dead and six feet under.

Darkobra · Apr 18, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

The whole game fails, get over it.

Exactly. At least they're learning from their mistakes and fixing this all in GW2. I hope.

And isn't it amazing how fast this turned into an Ursan thread? What was it? Two posts?

Kusandaa · Apr 18, 2008, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Part of me can't help but smirk at this. I'm a PvE player and I'm kinda tired of seeing my skills constantly nerfed because PvP uses it... so for once I'm kinda glad to have some sort of revenge >_>.

The other part of me doesn't give a crap about it and will adjust with whatever happens. Anyways, it's what I've been doing for a long time and really, I find replacements when some skills aren't usable anymore. It's the only thing to do IMHO, and my use of Ancestor's Rage wouldn't have stopped by a 1s cast... >_>.

Sure sometimes it's disappointing, but eh, I move on.

Ctb · Apr 18, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

The whole game fails, get over it.

Not the whole game.

Well, I mean, yea.... Guild Wars is a crapfest these days, but the fundamentals are still strong. It's the overabundance of skills and the ridiculous level of competition in PvP that makes everything else stink to holy heaven.

It's kind of like the stock market, I think. Yea, the news is consistently bad, and to a laymen the game looks like utter sh** now, but to people who dig a little more into the details, it's a fundamentally good system, they just need to work out the flaws and get things back on track.

Granted, that won't happen with Guild Wars 1, but there's always hope for the sequel....

Quote:

It's the only thing to do IMHO...

Except many of us have sort of drifted away from the game now. I mean, look at all the people who admitted a few weeks ago that they basically just use the GW client as a really pretty 3D chat.

Quote:

"In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, we will be reverting the changes on May 1st. For future tournaments, we aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all."

Ok. So they know these changes could have a negative impact on PvE. They make that statement to quiet the whiners (though they should have realized that most of the whiners don't bother taking the time to read things like that before posting, lol).

I read it. It says:

"In order to placate the screaming hordes of PvP while trying to appear that we give a flying ***k about anything else in the game, we're only going to irritate you for a few weeks this time rather than permanently. Here, have a carrot (sure it's rotten in and out, but it's still a carrot, right?) and shut up. We don't care what you think."

Of course, they didn't actually change anything I was using this time, and IMHO most of the changes this time were mostly inconsequential, but it's the fake "we care, we really do" that's annoying.

Either admit you don't care about anything but PvP, or just keep quiet. Don't patronize people with this wishy-washy garbage. If you want to run a fantasy-based based game for Halo nerds, fine. Just do it and say you're doing it and stop pretending it's anything else anymore so that people who don't think it's fun getting screamed at by thirteen year olds and grown men with too much spare time can avoid it.

ogre_jd · Apr 18, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

But there are reasons that specific classes like mesmers are left out of groups.

Yes. Because interrupt Mesmering, the main reason groups want one, takes a lot of skill, good timing & reflexes, good observational abilities, not to mention a thorough knowledge of skills (both player and monster) to play well. Even against bosses, where it is simplest, it's rather difficult unless the Mesmer has that last ability, otherwise they're stuck just spamming interrupts as they recharge. EDIT: Hero Mesmers seem to be far better in this role, though only when it comes to target acquisition and timing - they don't seem to have a clue about *which* skills they should bother to interrupt. But that still makes them better than the vast majority of humans trying to interrupt Mesmer.

Combat Mesmers, at least when I tried it ('cos I'm fully aware that I don't have the above listed skills/traits

), seem to get far less effective as you get further on in the campaigns, mainly due to the far larger number of creatures, and eventually Chaos Storm for when they get mobbed (since they're squishy) seems to be the best they can do most of the time, though they're still pretty good against bosses...

Buzzer · Apr 18, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Yes. Because interrupt Mesmering, the main reason groups want one, takes a lot of skill, good timing & reflexes, good observational abilities, not to mention a thorough knowledge of skills (both player and monster) to play well.

People don't take mesmers not because interrupting is hard, but because other professions are more efficient. Comparatively weak single-target damage and interrupts don't cut it.

DDL · Apr 18, 2008, 01:55 PM // 13:55

I begin to wonder who these "people" are, who are so restrictive about party compositions.

I suspect there are fewer of them than you think: you THINK there are a ton of them because, being stupidly picky about what sort of party they want, they are forced to spam for a lot longer, and a lot more frequently, for parties.

Less picky people take what party they can get, figure out how to make it work, and go with that. You won't notice them, of course, because they're not constantly spamming crap in the party search channel.

prism2525 · Apr 18, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Can't they simply create a double of the skill and nerf that while making the other PvE-only? I mean come on it's a no-brainer to me. Who'd be so thick as to use a similar, weaker version of a skill?

By all means make them PvP-only if you think it might compromise "PvE balance" but do something.

Fates · Apr 18, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

In my opinion, the worst part about this is they spent 2 years screwing over pve in the name of pvp balance, and now....now they admit it's a bad thing to do.

Huge changes, done for the sake of balancing pvp, such as;
-nerfing soul reaping
-nerfing the number of minions allowed (combined with SR nerf took all fun out of necros)
-nerfing spirits (rits no longer fun)
-nerfing numerous monk healing skills (now, if you're not an HB monk, you're SOL)
-nerfing pets and splinter (rangers no longer fun)
-and so on....

all done to "balance" pvp, and yet, here we are today...pvp apparently still isn't balanced and pve has been reduced to an ursan fest because all other viable and fun builds have been reduced to crap.

gg a-net, gg.

Avarre · Apr 18, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

In my opinion, the worst part about this is they spent 2 years screwing over pve in the name of pvp balance, and now....now they admit it's a bad thing to do.

Huge changes, done for the sake of balancing pvp, such as;
-nerfing soul reaping
-nerfing the number of minions allowed (combined with SR nerf took all fun out of necros)
-nerfing spirits (rits no longer fun)
-nerfing numerous monk healing skills (now, if you're not an HB monk, you're SOL)
-nerfing pets and splinter (rangers no longer fun)
-and so on....

all done to "balance" pvp, and yet, here we are today...pvp apparently still isn't balanced and pve has been reduced to an ursan fest because all other viable and fun builds have been reduced to crap.

gg a-net, gg.

Are you legitimately trying to argue that these things were not incredibly powerful in PvE to the point they warranted reduction as well?

You mention in your post you don't solidly know the state of PvP balance, and you evidently don't know enough skillbars to be able to think beyond Ursan. Why should ANet try to please you as a customer when clearly what you think and what the game is are unrelated concepts?

Hm, it's not fair to pick on you directly. Let me try to say this in more general terms.

1: PvE has not been wrecked by any change. Comparing early Guild Wars to now, PvE players have a far better arsenal. Changes relating to PvP are pretty much small rocks thrown in the ocean of skill imbalance that defines PvE.

2: The feedback of players who do not PvP should not be taken into account for balances that affect PvP. Before any statement is made saying that 'PvP players shouldn't get to choose what happens in PvE', try to remember that almost all PvP-oriented players have played and completed PvE.

Splitting the game might work, but then you end up with two separate games, compared to how PvE and PvP were linked by the storyline of GW. Would this damage new player accessibility to PvP, if they had to relearn the entire game? Maybe, I can't say for sure. Overall, either the game gets split or the crowd of players who don't play the entire game (you know who I'm referring to) get better and understand the importance of balance changes and how little they are really affected.

Fates · Apr 18, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Are you legitimately trying to argue that these things were not incredibly powerful in PvE to the point they warranted reduction as well?

You mention in your post you don't solidly know the state of PvP balance, and you evidently don't know enough skillbars to be able to think beyond Ursan. Why should ANet try to please you as a customer when clearly what you think and what the game is are unrelated concepts?

Did you even read my post, or just spew? Did I say they weren't overpowered compared to other builds? I said they were fun, and there was some variety in pugs. Now, because there is only one powerful build, there is no variety.

If you know anything about high end pve, you know it's all ursan. "Thinking beyond ursan" doesn't help you find a party. You might have the greatest assassin skill bar in the world, but if ursan isn't on it, you're not joining any pug. It's as simple as...if you aren't ursan or HB, you will spend hours trying to put together a party, and then give up in frustration.

The pve game (right now) is ursan. If you are arguing otherwise, you have no clue.

read, comprehend, then write.

ogre_jd · Apr 18, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Less picky people take what party they can get, figure out how to make it work, and go with that. You won't notice them, of course, because they're not constantly spamming crap in the party search channel.

Mainly because they've finished the missions/quests with their sub-optimal groups and builds that many here constantly revile and have moved on to the next area.

Shuuda · Apr 18, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I think that A-nets intention is a good one, but they have made one fatal flaw:

Ursan, as long as this exists, balance in PvE cannot exist, but because of all the PvErs that want it A-net will never remove/nerf it, so basicly A-net are scarficing PvP balance for a pipe dream.

P.S: JR made a made a good suggestion or two in his thread on the subject.

Sab · Apr 18, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

In my opinion, the worst part about this is they spent 2 years screwing over pve in the name of pvp balance, and now....now they admit it's a bad thing to do.

Huge changes, done for the sake of balancing pvp, such as;
-nerfing soul reaping
-nerfing the number of minions allowed (combined with SR nerf took all fun out of necros)
-nerfing spirits (rits no longer fun)
-nerfing numerous monk healing skills (now, if you're not an HB monk, you're SOL)
-nerfing pets and splinter (rangers no longer fun)
-and so on....

all done to "balance" pvp, and yet, here we are today...pvp apparently still isn't balanced and pve has been reduced to an ursan fest because all other viable and fun builds have been reduced to crap.

gg a-net, gg.

Just about every build is viable in PvE. It just so happens that they don't fit your arbitrary definition of "fun". You're pretty much blaming PvE Ursan-fest on PvP when it's clearly Ursan that's the problem.

Angelic Upstart · Apr 18, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

And isn't it amazing how fast this turned into an Ursan thread? What was it? Two posts?

That is probably because Ursan Blessing, is right now the most massively overpowered and ridiculous pos skill, ever to have seen daylight in this game.
While i personally hope it gets nerfed to hell and back , i am resigned to the fact that it probably wont even get a second look....